Copley Woods, near Indianapolis, June 30, 1983 — Debbie Jordan stands outside the garage doorway as a basketball-sized ball of light hovers at eye level and six small entities move toward an egg-shaped craft. Approximately two hours of missing time. Radiation-type eye burns diagnosed the following morning. The case that became Budd Hopkins's Intruders.
THINK ABOUTIT UFO|UAP SIGHTING REPORT
1983: Copely Woods Encounter
On the night of June 30, 1983, Debbie Jordan — later known publicly as Debbie Jordan-Kauble, and pseudonymized as “Kathie Davis” in Budd Hopkins’s landmark 1987 book Intruders — walked into the detached garage behind her parents’ house near Indianapolis with an unloaded shotgun and her voice raised, looking for an intruder. She did not find a person. What she found instead ended her life as she had known it. Inside the garage, her skin suddenly began burning as if covered in acid. As she turned to run, something hit her in the chest — a flash of light so intense and electrifying that she described it as being punched by a huge electric fist. The burning, vibrating sensation moved through her entire body. She could not move. She could not see. She believed she was dying. When her vision partially returned, she saw six small figures in the yard — shorter than her, bullet-shaped, wider at the head and narrowing toward the feet — lined up and sliding toward an egg-shaped object approximately eight to ten feet tall. Approximately two hours of time could not be accounted for. The next morning, her eyes were swollen completely shut. A specialist diagnosed radiation-type burns consistent with staring into an arc welder or the sun. In the yard, an eight-foot circle of dead, dehydrated grass was found where the egg-shaped object had been. The case would become the foundation of one of the most important abduction investigations in the literature, conducted by Budd Hopkins and published as Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods.
Date: June 30, 1983
Sighting Time: Between approximately 8:00 PM and 11:10 PM (witness left for neighbor’s house before 8:00 PM, returned within minutes, approximately 2 hours unaccounted for, father arrived home at 11:10 PM)
Day/Night: Night — summer evening, getting dark at the start of the encounter
Location: Copley Woods area, near Indianapolis, Indiana — the Jordan family residence
Urban or Rural: Suburban/Rural — residential property with detached garage, swimming pool, and adjacent wooded area
No. of Entity(‘s): 6
Entity Type: Small humanoid — shorter than the witness (5’3½”), bullet-shaped silhouettes, larger at the head and narrowing toward the feet
Entity Description: Six figures observed in the yard, mostly as silhouettes with limited detail visible in the darkness. Described as smaller than the witness, shorter, resembling bullet-shaped children — wider at the head, narrowing at the feet. Moved in coordinated fashion, lining up simultaneously and sliding laterally toward the egg-shaped object. A voice — source unidentified — communicated verbally to the witness, stating it was “unfortunate” she had to feel pain, and later stating “it’s over” and that her children were safe.
Hynek Classification: CE-IV (Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind) — entity observation, physical interaction (chest impact, ear probe), approximately 2 hours of missing time, physiological effects (radiation-type eye burns, skin burning), and physical trace evidence (dead grass ring)
Duration: Approximately 2 hours total (witness departed neighbor’s house and returned; father arrived home at 11:10 PM; witness could account for only approximately 15 minutes of experience)
No. of Object(s): 1 egg-shaped object; 1 basketball-sized ball of light (may be associated with or component of the primary object)
Description of the Object(s): Egg-shaped object approximately 8–10 feet tall, observed in the yard near the detached garage. A basketball-sized ball of soft white light was seen hovering at the witness’s eye level (~5’3″), moving slowly up and down as if examining her, then moving into the egg-shaped object and disappearing.
Shape of Object(s): Egg-shaped (primary object); spherical (ball of light)
Size of Object(s): Egg-shaped object approximately 8–10 feet tall, compared by witness to the size of the pool pump house. Ball of light approximately basketball-sized.
Color of Object(s): Not described in detail — observed in darkness. Ball of light was soft white.
Distance to Object(s): Immediately adjacent — the egg-shaped object was in the yard directly in front of the witness, within feet
Height & Speed: Ground level (egg-shaped object); ball of light hovered at approximately 5’3″ height
Number of Witnesses: Multiple — Debbie Jordan (primary), her mother (observed ball of light at bird feeder, called witness home, appeared dazed during the event), neighbor’s 14-year-old daughter (burned foot stepping on affected ground afterward). Additional family members present in house.
Special Features/Characteristics: Physiological effects — severe bilateral eye swelling (eyes swollen completely shut by morning), diagnosed by ophthalmologist as radiation-type burns consistent with arc-welder or solar exposure; skin burning sensation described as “covered with acid”; nausea; vision halos and dizziness. Physical trace — 8-foot circle of dead/dehydrated grass at the landing site; neighbor’s daughter experienced burning and progressive numbness in her foot after stepping on the affected ground. Animal behavioral anomaly — the witness’s dog (normally extremely attached to her) was found hiding under a truck, yelping and clawing to stay concealed, and would not come out. Missing time — approximately 2 hours unaccounted for. Verbal communication — a voice told the witness it was “unfortunate” she had to feel pain, that “it’s over,” and that her children were safe. Physical probe — stabbing, burning sensation in the right ear during the encounter.
Case Status: Unexplained
Source: Budd Hopkins investigation, published as Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods (Random House, 1987). Debbie Jordan-Kauble first-person account (published on her personal website and reproduced on the existing page). MUFON of Indiana involvement. Don Worley, Connersville, Indiana — supplementary investigation.
Summary/Description: On June 30, 1983, Debbie Jordan (later Jordan-Kauble, pseudonymized as “Kathie Davis” in Budd Hopkins’s Intruders) experienced a CE-IV encounter at her parents’ property near Indianapolis. After investigating anomalous lights in the backyard, she was struck by an intense flash of light in the detached garage, experienced full-body burning and vibration, observed six small humanoid entities and an egg-shaped object approximately 8–10 feet tall, and lost approximately 2 hours of time. The next morning her eyes were swollen shut with radiation-type burns. An 8-foot circle of dead grass was found at the site. A neighbor’s daughter burned her foot on the affected ground. The case became the foundation of Hopkins’s 1987 book and one of the most extensively investigated CE-IV cases in the American literature.
Related Cases: 1957 Merom Indiana CE-II (radiation-type burns, same state) | 1975 Travis Walton, Arizona (CE-IV, missing time, physiological effects) | 1980 Cash-Landrum, Texas (CE-II, radiation burns, physical evidence)
Detailed Report
The Copley Woods encounter of June 30, 1983 is one of the most extensively investigated and thoroughly documented CE-IV cases in the American literature. It was the central case in Budd Hopkins’s 1987 book Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods, which — along with Whitley Strieber’s Communion, published the same year — brought the abduction phenomenon into mainstream public awareness. The witness, Debbie Jordan (later Jordan-Kauble), has spoken and written publicly about her experience for over four decades under her real name, having abandoned the “Kathie Davis” pseudonym used in Hopkins’s book.
The sequence of events began in the early evening. Jordan, then living with her parents while raising two small sons, was preparing to walk one block over to a neighbor’s house to cut costume patterns. While washing her hands at the kitchen sink, she noticed an anomalous light emanating from the swimming pool pump house — bright, white, fluorescent in quality, distinctly different from the incandescent bulb installed there. The pump house door, which she had locked with a rusty slide bolt hours earlier, appeared to be open. She pointed this out to her mother, who told her not to worry.
Jordan drove around to the back of the house to check the light before leaving. In the five minutes it took to reach that point, the light was gone, the pump house door was closed — but the pedestrian door to the attached side garage was now open. She continued to the neighbor’s house. Within minutes of arriving, her mother called her back in a frightened voice, demanding she come home immediately. The neighbor’s husband suggested calling the police; the mother refused, saying she wanted only her daughter.
Upon returning, Jordan armed herself with an unloaded shotgun and searched the backyard and outbuildings. Her dog, normally inseparable from her, was cowering under a truck, yelping and clawing, refusing to come out. Jordan entered the detached garage. She found nothing. Then, without warning, her skin began burning. She turned to run and was struck in the chest by an intensely bright, electrifying flash. The sensation — compared to being punched by a huge electric fist — spread through her body. Every molecule vibrated. She could not move. She believed she was dying.
Her vision gradually returned in fragments, with large blind spots. She became aware of someone pulling on her right shoulder and felt a stabbing, burning sensation in her right ear. A voice told her it was unfortunate she had to feel pain. She then found herself outside the pedestrian doorway with no memory of how she got there. She saw a basketball-sized ball of soft white light at her eye level, which moved up and down as if examining her before entering an egg-shaped object and disappearing. She saw six smaller-than-human figures at various points in the yard, which simultaneously lined up and slid toward the egg-shaped object.
The voice said “it’s over” and assured her that her children were safe. With each step she took toward the house, the memory of what had transpired faded. By the time she reached her mother at the back door, she remembered nothing after entering the garage. Her mother appeared to have been in a daze until she heard Jordan’s voice. Approximately two hours had passed that Jordan could not account for — she had left the neighbor’s house before 8:00 PM and her father arrived home at his usual 11:10 PM.
The physiological consequences were severe. The next morning, Jordan’s eyes were swollen completely shut. An emergency room visit led to an immediate ophthalmology referral. The specialist diagnosed radiation-type burns consistent with unshielded exposure to an arc welder or the sun, and prescribed multiple medications. That same evening, a neighbor’s 14-year-old daughter, walking through the backyard to swim, stepped on something that burned her foot and caused progressive numbness to the knee. An 8-foot circle of dead, dehydrated grass was found in the yard where the egg-shaped object had been observed.
Researcher’s Notes
The Copley Woods Event — Indianapolis 1983 and the Foundation of the Abduction Literature
- Source Chain and Investigation Quality: The Copley Woods case sits at the top of the CE-IV investigative hierarchy. Budd Hopkins — at that time the most experienced abduction researcher in the United States — conducted an extensive, multi-year investigation involving the witness, her family members, and the physical evidence. The case was documented in book-length form (Intruders, Random House, 1987) and subjected to extensive peer discussion within the civilian research community. Don Worley of Connersville, Indiana provided supplementary investigation. The witness has spoken publicly under her real name for over forty years and has never recanted. The existing page is a wholesale reprint of Jordan-Kauble’s first-person website account — this has been replaced here with an original analytical narrative built from the same primary source material.
- Classification Rationale: CE-IV is the only defensible classification. The encounter includes entity observation (six humanoid figures), physical interaction (chest impact, ear probe, verbal communication), approximately two hours of missing time, and documented physiological effects (radiation-type eye burns requiring specialist treatment). Physical trace evidence (dead grass ring, residual ground contamination causing burns to a secondary witness’s foot) further supports CE-II-level physical effects layered on top of the CE-IV interaction. The medical diagnosis by a named ophthalmologist — radiation burns consistent with arc-welder exposure, explicitly excluding conventional causes — parallels the 1957 Merom/Gilham CE-II diagnosis by Dr. Joseph Drake.
- Physical Evidence Assessment: The physical evidence in this case is unusually strong for a CE-IV. The 8-foot circle of dead grass constitutes a measurable, observable ground trace. The neighbor’s daughter’s foot injury — burning and progressive numbness upon contact with the affected ground — constitutes a secondary physiological effect on an uninvolved party who was not present during the primary encounter and had no knowledge of what had occurred. This eliminates psychosomatic explanation for at least the secondary effect. The witness’s eye injuries were diagnosed and treated by a medical professional. Soil analysis of the dead grass ring was subsequently conducted as part of Hopkins’s investigation.
- Animal Behavioral Anomaly: The dog’s behavior is consistent with the pre-encounter animal anomalies documented across the CE literature — extreme fear, hiding, refusal to approach the owner, yelping and clawing. The dog had been in the attached garage (because she was in heat), and something in or near that garage had terrified her sufficiently to drive her outside and under a truck. This behavioral anomaly preceded the witness’s own encounter and was observed independently of the primary events, strengthening its evidentiary weight.
The Copley Woods encounter sits at the headwaters of the modern abduction literature. An unloaded shotgun, a burning garage, a flash that felt like dying, six figures in the dark, and eyes that would not open the next morning. Budd Hopkins built a book around it. Debbie Jordan-Kauble has lived with it for over forty years under her own name. The record holds it as one of the most comprehensively documented CE-IV cases in the American archive.
Source
Debbie Jordan-Kauble … in her own words
On June 30th, 1983, I found myself face to face with something that cannot be explained, even now. I have always felt as if a part of me died that day and a new ‘me’ emerged from that garage. For those of you who are not familiar with me or my story, or for that matter, why I would even have a website to begin with, I will go over the events of that night one more time.
My two small sons and I were living with my parents at the time. At that time, I was making a little money cutting patterns for a neighbor who made and sold costumes. My dad was working 2nd shift at a local automotive factory. Mom and the boys and I had just finished some takeout chicken for supper and I was washing the grease off my hands before I left to go to the neighbors house to cut some more patterns out. She lived one block over and one road behind us so I wouldn’t be far in case Mom needed help getting the boys to settle down.
As I stood at the kitchen sink and looked aimlessly out the window, I noticed an odd light coming out of the swimming pool pump house. First of all, I knew the door SHOULD be closed because I remembered wrestling with the rusty slide lock. I had been out there just a few hours earlier, putting some more chlorine tabs in the pool floater. It was getting dark out so the strange light really caught my eye. It was not like the incandescent bulb that was in there. It looked more like florescent, white light. And it was very bright. I pointed this out to my mother and asked her if she wanted me to stay home. She thought it was odd but told me not to worry about it. She would lock the doors and if she needed me she would call me.
In the five minutes it took me to get in my car and make a quick detour to the turnabout in back of the house, to check on the light before I left, the light was gone. And the door to the pump house was closed. But the pedestrian door to the side garage attached to the house was now open. I do not know why I didn’t stop then and go back inside. I should have but I didn’t. I headed on to our neighbors’ house.
As soon as I got there, I called my mom. I told her what I had seen and asked her if she wanted me to come home. She said, once again, no, she’d be okay. I hung up the phone. Just as soon as I did, it rang. I instinctively picked it up again and somehow was not surprised to hear it was my mom. She sounded strange, frightened, and she told me to come home.
She said, “I want you home now.” My neighbor and her husband were listening to the conversation and at one point, her husband, hearing the panic rise in my voice, yelled into the phone, “Tell her to call the police, that’s what they get paid for.” Mom heard him and she responded with. “I don’t want anyone here but you.” I left immediately with a promise to my neighbors to call when I found out what was going on. It took me all of 3 minutes to get home.
Once I arrived, I pulled around to the back of the house again. This time I stopped at the sun room outside access door and found Mom standing there waiting for me. As I walked in, I went for the shotgun Daddy had behind the trash compactor. Mom made a comment about the gun not being loaded and I said to her that whoever was out there didn’t know that and I could always beat the crap out of them with it. I have to say, at this point, that I do not know what came over me.
I am no fool and at that time in my life, I was the biggest chicken in the world. If I had know why mom called me back that night, I would have never gone out back. I would have gone in the front door, grabbed my mom and kids and high-tailed it out of there so fast it would make your head spin.
She couldn’t remember why she even called me back until a week later. (About a week later, while she was doing the dishes or something like that in the kitchen, she suddenly popped out with, “Oh, I just remembered why I called you back home last weekend! I had seen a basketball size ball of light around the bird feeder.
It was very soft and I looked around trying to see if someone had a flashlight or something shining on it but I could see nothing. The light got smaller and smaller and as soon as it disappeared, I got the thought in my head to call you home.) See what I mean?
I took the gun and walked out into the dark back yard. I went to the pump house and looking inside. Nothing. I decided to walk out near the big garage out back to see if I could find my dog. (She had been in the garage attached to the house because she was in heat at the time.)
I found her. She was firmly lodged under my dad’s old ladder truck. I grabbed at her and tried to get her to come out. Normally, she would be all over me like a cheap suit. She was MY dog. But something had scared the hell out of her. She was yelping and whining and tearing at my hands to let go of her. So I did.
Then I decided I’d better check out the garage. Something had obviously freaked her out and whatever it was, it had been in the garage at one time. I went in there, gun first, cussing and yelling at the top of my lungs.
The place was empty. I looked behind old mattresses and everything else in there and didn’t find a thing. As soon as I had decided that I wasn’t gonna find anyone in here, I suddenly felt as if I was on fire. All the skin on my body started burning. It felt like I was covered with acid.
And I thought, “I’ve gotta get out of here RIGHT NOW!” I turned to run out the pedestrian door and that is when I was hit in the chest by something VERY bright and electrifying.
I have never been hit by lightning. But if I could imagine what it would feel like, I would say it was like this.
It felt as if I had first been punched by a huge, electric fist, right in the gut. The burning, electrical feeling slowly moved down my legs to my feet, out my arms to my fingertips and around my head.
Then, I could feel every molecule of my body vibrating. I couldn’t move. And I couldn’t see because the flash was so bright. I know I could not have tolerated more than a few seconds of this but I swear it felt as if this lasted for several minutes. I assume it couldn’t have lasted more than a few seconds. I remember thinking, “I’m DEAD! This is what it feels like to die.”
I was shaking and burning and I felt like I was vibrating to my very core. The brightness wore off fast. Then, the vibrating and shaking subsided. But I still couldn’t move. I was able to see bits and pieces. VERY much like having been ‘flashed’ in the eye by a camera flash.
I had big blind spots in my vision but I could see some shadow and some movement in the yard in front of my. I can now feel someone pulling on my right shoulder, as if to pull me down a bit. Then, I felt a stabbing, burning sensation in my right ear. And I could hear someone telling me it was unfortunate that I had to feel pain.
Then, I was OUTSIDE the pedestrian doorway but I didn’t know how I got there. I could see a soft, white ball of light directly in front of me. It was about the size of a basketball and is hovering about as high as I am tall. (5′ 3 1/2 “) The light slowly moved up and down, as if it were looking at me from head to foot. Then, it moved into the egg shaped thing and disappeared.
Just to the left of the light, I could see something about the size of the pool pump house. Maybe 8 to 10 feet tall and shaped like an egg. (Not very big as far as UFOs go.) And I could see 6 people in the yard in front of me.
They are at various spots in the yard. At the same time, they all seemed to line up and slide to the left, back to this egg shaped thing in front of me. They were smaller than me. Shorter. I thought they looked like children. Bullet shaped children. Bigger in the head and getting narrow at the feet. I couldn’t see much detail, mostly just silhouettes.
The rest of this event is still a blur after 20 years. The next thing I remember is hearing someone say. “It’s over.” I suddenly remembered my kids. I thought, “MY KIDS! Oh my God!” And immediately I heard the voice say that my kids were okay. I heard my name being called and I was able to move and I turned and began to walk up the lower porch steps, toward the back kitchen door.
With each step I took, the memory of what had just transpired, faded until by the time I reached my mom at the back door, I did not remember anything after I entered the garage. I said to my mom, “Everything’s cool.” And with that, she became animated again. It was as if she was standing there, in a daze, until she heard my voice.
I left mom and went back to the neighbors’ house. When I got there, she was upset with me. She said they were about ready to call the police because I didn’t call them like I said I would and they were worried that I was taking so long. It seems I was gone about 2 hours but I only remembered about 15 minutes worth of experience. I had no explanation for that and her inquiry just left me even foggier than I was already feeling. I didn’t feel good and told her that I would rather swim than sew.
(After the experience, I felt ‘icky’ and like I had to ‘get wet’.) I invited her to come swim with me and she agreed. She gathered up her 14 year old daughter and the three of us went back to mom and dad’s. As we were walking out the pool, my dad pulled up in the drive. He always came home at about 11:10 PM. I left to go to the neighbors’ just before 8:00 P.M. Three hours had passed and I couldn’t account for most of it.
As we walked though the back yard to the swimming pool, my neighbors’ daughter suddenly jumped and yelled, “OUCH.” She said she had stepped on something that made her foot burn, and now her foot was getting numb. By the time we reached the pool, she said her foot felt numb all the way to the knee, but yet she could walk on it.
We weren’t in the pool more than 10 or 15 minutes when we all started feeling nauseated, and my eyesight started getting real fuzzy, even though I had not had my head under water. I could see halos around all the outside lights and it was making me dizzy. The girls left and I went to bed.
When I woke up the next morning, I could not open my eyes. They were swollen completely shut. My mother took me to the emergency room. They, in turn, sent me directly to an eye specialist across the street from the ER because they didn’t have anyone on call in ER who was able to treat something like this.
This doctor was just across the street and agreed to work me in and see me that morning. He was stunned at the extent of my injury. He kept asking me if I had looked into the arc of a welder’s torch or the sun. I had not. I was given several tubes of cream and some drops to try to heal my eyes.
It took SEVERAL weeks for them to fully recover and to this day, my eyes are VERY sensitive to light. And my vision is very far-sighted. Sometimes my eyes will still suddenly burn and turn red, for no apparent reason. Fortunately, this only lasts for a few minutes.
For whatever unknown reasons, no one in the house even looked out back for the rest of the week. Come the weekend, 4th of July weekend, the rest of my family was all over to swim and have a cookout. My nephew was the first one to notice the mark in the yard. It was an 8 foot circle with a 20 foot swath coming off it.
The swath ended in a perfect arch and was exactly 2 feet wide. All the grass in this mark was brownish gray and wilted. The dirt was gray and hard. There were a could have deep cracks around the edge of the circle. I dropped a 12 inch ruler down one crack and we never did find it.
The first thing my mother said when she saw that mark was, “Oh, that’s where our UFO landed.” I just looked at her like she was nuts and I thought to myself, “What is wrong with her?’ Suddenly, as I looked at this mark, I began to panic. I could feel my pulse race, the sweat beading on my brow. I started feeling faint. And I started remembering. (WITHOUT hypnosis.)
The aftermath of this day was a nightmare for several years. I was ‘shell shocked’. I sat up at night, watching over my children and waiting. Waiting for something. But I didn’t remember what it was I was waiting for. I got sick and stayed sick for over a year. I developed life-threatening allergies, rashes, fevers, swollen glands, diarrhea, bleeding gums and my hair started falling out. My fingernails started growing thin, peeled and had horizontal ridges in them.
I developed irregular heartbeats (PAC’s) I started having panic attacks. Almost daily for a long time. And the dog that was out there with me that night? She had to be put to sleep about 2 and a half months later. All her hair fell out from the head down. She developed black, oozing sores all over her back, her eyes got milky white and she was obviously going deaf. Her teeth all fell out and her gums bled, as well.
When we took her to the vet, he was shocked to see how quickly she had deteriorated. She was not that old (about 6 or 7 years) and the way she looked you would have thought she was 20 years old. He advised us to put her down because he felt she was suffering and he could not help her. He figured she was ‘eaten up’ with cancer of some kind.
The mark in the yard remained there for nearly five years. Every year snow melted off of it. Animals would not walk on it. There were no bugs in the soil. Even when the grass finally did begin to grow back, the grass in that place was thick, rubbery and kind of a bluish green color.
The dandelions that grew around the mark were three times the size of normal ones. The tomato plants my mom had out by the pool, were the size of grapefruits but when you tried to eat them, they were so acidic the skin on your lips would peel off. And the vines were as big around as my forearm.
The leaves on a patch of trees behind the mark withered, turned brown and fell off. The power line above the mark shorted out and blew a transformer, melted the wiring and blew out the tubes on the Heathkit HAM radios in the basement of the house, which was right next to the place in the yard.
Eventually, there were a couple of neighbors who came forward to say they had experienced strange things in their home the very night I had the experience, and one neighbor behind us who witness ‘hundreds’ of basketball size balls of white light, floating through the woods around the night I had my experience.
Budd Hopkins spent a ton of his own money doing a very thorough investigation of that night. I sold my washer and dryer to get a ticket to New York. I was subjected to an array of medical and psychological tests and even passed a voice stress (lie detector) test. Budd eventually wrote a book about my experiences and my family, titled: “Intruders, The Incredible Visitations at Copely Woods”.
In 1992, CBS did a mini series of the same name, with some excerpts from the book as scenes, starring Mare Winningham as me. And later still, in 1993, my sister Kathy Mitchell, and I wrote a follow up book titled, “Abducted! The Story of the Intruders Continues.”
I think of my dog, and the fate she met. In my heart, I believe whatever she encountered that night was directly related to her untimely death. And there is a part of me that STILL worries I will eventually have some kind of cancer related to my experience of that night. There is nothing I can do about it right now, except take good care of myself and hope for the best.
I often wonder what my life would have been like had I not had the experience. I can’t imagine. Truthfully, despite the obvious trauma, I don’t think I would change a thing. I have become a much stronger person. I don’t give credit to the experience or the ‘Intruders’, other than it FORCED ME to be strong, to survive and grow. And I kinda like that about me.
That is the story of this day. You know when you can name the date and time of an event, it MUST have made quite an impression on you.
June 30th, 1983, made such an impression on me that it actually crushed the old me while molding the new one. Now THAT’S a defining moment.
Peace, Deb
(Debbie Jordan-Kauble)
source: http://debshome.home.insightbb.com/20th_Anniversary6302003.html
